In the film The Master of Disguise (2002), secret agent Pistachio absurdly believes that the Turtle Club he intends on infiltrating is comprised of people who dress in turtle outfits. Although most people I know who saw the film didn’t enjoy it, that scene served as an ongoing joke between a friend and me for many years.
Photo credit, property of Sony Pictures Motion Picture Group, fair use
Turtley unrelated, I’d like to address the expression “Turtles all the way down,” which one source states “is an expression of the problem of infinite regress” and adds:
The saying alludes to the mythological idea of a World Turtle that supports a flat Earth on its back. It suggests that this turtle rests on the back of an even larger turtle, which itself is part of a column of increasingly larger turtles that continues indefinitely.
While I understand that some people believe in the existence of unfalsifiable metaphysical claims – perhaps literally believing that in one of infinite dimensions there may actually be turtles all the way down – I retain my position expressed in a blogpost entitled In Theory:
Consider Hitchens’s razor—what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. Now contemplate the Sagan standard— extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Noteworthy, on his electronic dance music (EDM) track “Gamma Goblins (‘It’s Turtles All the Way Down’ Mix),” remixed by Ott, Hallucinogen features the voice of Alan Watts. Watts’ voice describes the “fundamental principles of drama.”
In a related Watts discussion, describing elements that play into drama, Watts also stated:
When we were children, we were taught 123 and ABC. But we weren’t sat down on our mothers’ knees and taught the game of black and white. That’s the thing that was left out of all our education – that life is not a conflict between opposites, but a polarity.
The difference between a conflict and a polarity is simply when you say about opposite things, we sometimes use the expression, “These two things are the poles apart.” You say for example, with someone with whom you totally disagree, “I’m the poles apart from this person.”
But your very saying that gives the show away. Poles. Poles are the opposite ends of one magnet. And if you take a magnet, there’s a North Pole and a South Pole. All right, chop off the South Pole. Move it away.
The piece you’ve got left creates a new South Pole. You’ll never get rid of the South Pole. Things may be the poles apart, but they go together. You can’t have the one without the other.
This concept ties into the infinite regress mechanism of the turtles all the way down concept. Regarding this element, one source states:
An infinite regress is an infinite series of entities governed by a recursive principle that determines how each entity in the series depends on or is produced by its predecessor.
In the epistemic regress, for example, a belief is justified because it is based on another belief that is justified. But this other belief is itself in need of one more justified belief for itself to be justified and so on. An infinite regress argument is an argument against a theory based on the fact that this theory leads to an infinite regress.
I addressed drama which results from recursion and epistemic regress in a blogpost entitled Personality Disorders, by asserting that “drama results from wielding a metaphorical hammer when confronted by dilemmas inherent in life. It’s the process of escalation, upset, and creation of additional problems which encompasses ‘drama” in this regard.”
Elaborating on recursion, in a blog entry entitled Your Thoughts Ain’t My Thoughts, I stated:
Per one source, “First-order theory of mind refers to thinking, knowing, perceiving or feeling what others are thinking, knowing, perceiving or feeling, and therefore is recursive. It is implied by statements such as ‘I think you must be thinking that I’m an idiot,’ or ‘Ted thinks Alice wants Fred to stop bugging her.”
When practicing Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy (REBT), I listen closely for irrational beliefs which stack upon one another like the concept of turtles all the way down. Recursion, epistemic regress, and drama interplay with one another to produce self-disturbance.
REBT theory uses the ABC model to illustrate how when Activating events (“Actions”) occur and people maintain irrational Beliefs about the events, these unhelpful assumptions – and not the actual occurrences – are what create unpleasant cognitive, emotive, bodily sensation, and behavioral Consequences.
Therefore, from a psychological standpoint, people disturb themselves using a Belief-Consequence (B-C) connection. Of course, this isn’t to suggest that in the context of the naturalistic or physical world there is no Action-Consequence (A-C) connection.
To better understand how irrational beliefs stack upon one another, consider how one source states that in “epistemology [concerned with determining how we know what we know], the regress argument is the argument that any proposition requires a justification,” and adds:
Assuming that knowledge is justified true belief [i.e., logical and reasonable justification], then:
1. Suppose that P is some piece of knowledge. Then P is a justified true belief.
2. The only thing that can justify P is another statement – let’s call it P1; so P1 justifies P.
3. But if P1 is to be a satisfactory justification for P, then we must know that P1 is true.
4. But for P1 to be known, it must also be a justified true belief.
5. That justification will be another statement – let’s call it P2; so P2 justifies P1.
6. But if P2 is to be a satisfactory justification for P1, then we must know that P2 is true
7. But for P2 to count as knowledge, it must itself be a justified true belief.
8. That justification will in turn be another statement – let’s call it P3; so P3 justifies P2.
9. and so on, ad infinitum.
Simply because a person believes something is true doesn’t make it so. Likewise, an individual can express something true – such as what occurs with a coincidental guess (e.g., guessing that the number of fingers I’m extending behind my back is three) – though this act doesn’t constitute a justified true belief.
Without understanding of the regress argument, one may irrationally wind up in infinite regress. Allow me to demonstrate how this can happen:
You make plans with someone to meet for dinner at 6 PM. The individual hasn’t shown by 6:15 PM and isn’t responding to calls or texts. You use the irrational belief of demandingness by telling yourself, “People should value my time, because my time is as important as theirs” (P).
Because this principle is your own, you consider it a justified true belief. After all, you can’t fathom the notion that your mind would actually place value in a lie (P1). Therefore, you truly believe other people should value the importance of your time.
Knowing that you value your time (P) and that you wouldn’t possibly lie to yourself (P1), you further believe that the person with whom you’ve set plans also knows of the value you place on your time (P2). You evidence this belief by concluding that the individual wouldn’t have set plans if your value of time wasn’t understood (P3).
Still, for P3 to be true, you irrationally reason that most people know the value of time (P4) and you further believe that those who are careless with time aren’t worth your time (P5). Still, you’ve invited someone to dinner who you believe is worth your time, though the individual is running late and not responding to communication attempts – thus, not valuing your time at all.
An individual being late for dinner (Action) isn’t what causes an unpleasant emotive or behavioral outcome (Consequence). An A-C connection would occur if the person was on the way to dinner and was involved in a motor vehicle accident (Action) which resulted in a fatality (Consequence).
Therefore, when the individual is tardy (Action), what you Believe about the event is what results in an unpleasant Consequence. Regarding these unhelpful beliefs which cause you to become self-disturbed, it’s turtles all the way down.
Concerning this matter, I stated in a blogpost entitled Dipping into Layers:
REBT can be a useful tool when addressing unhelpful beliefs which cause suffering. Still, if we allow these unhealthy beliefs to layer upon one another without disrupting the compounding process, we’re likely to disturb ourselves more than if we first dealt with the initial belief.
When working with clients, I encourage them to focus on disputing the underlying belief that causes a consequence in association with an action. Rather than an A-C connection, my clients learn about the B-C connection.
Thus, disputation is the key to resolving drama. In the framing of Watts, life is not a conflict between opposites, but a polarity. REBT doesn’t completely remove one pole from existing forever more; it merely utilizes adaptive new beliefs which better serves one’s interests and goals.
Of course, it’s worth noting that the process of disputing can be uncomfortable. In fact, I find that some people simply pretend not to have irrational beliefs at all, as to don a turtle suit and parade through the Turtle Club as though there’s nothing out of the ordinary.
In this way, it’s turtles all the way down while absurdly denying reality. If that’s how one chooses to spend one’s time, who am I to demand that one shouldn’t, mustn’t, or oughtn’t to do so? Turtle!
For everyone else, I remain available to help people understand the interplay between recursion, epistemic regress, and drama. If you would like to know more about how I use REBT to accomplish this, I look forward to hearing from you.
If you’re looking for a provider who works to help you understand how thinking impacts physical, mental, emotional, and behavioral elements of your life—helping you to sharpen your critical thinking skills, I invite you to reach out today by using the contact widget on my website.
As the world’s original EDM-influenced REBT psychotherapist—promoting content related to EDM, I’m pleased to help people with an assortment of issues from anger (hostility, rage, and aggression) to relational issues, adjustment matters, trauma experience, justice involvement, attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder, anxiety and depression, and other mood or personality-related matters.
At Hollings Therapy, LLC, serving all of Texas, I aim to treat clients with dignity and respect while offering a multi-lensed approach to the practice of psychotherapy and life coaching. My mission includes: Prioritizing the cognitive and emotive needs of clients, an overall reduction in client suffering, and supporting sustainable growth for the clients I serve. Rather than simply helping you to feel better, I want to help you get better!
Deric Hollings, LPC, LCSW
References:
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